Talk:Meme

It should be noted that substantive criticism has come from those who criticize neodarwinism and it's adherents generally. Richard Lewontin an evolutionary geneticist, Tim Ingold a cultural anthropologist, and Rod Swenson an ecologist, for example have all independently criticized the notion of memes or selectionist theories of culture in their books articles and acedemic papers. Respectively a few of these works are Lewontin - "The Price of Metaphor", Ingold - "The poverty of selectionism", Ingold - "The perception of the environment: essays on dwelling livlihood and skill", and Swenson - "Evolutionary Theory Developing: The Problem(s) With Darwin's Dangerous Idea". Typically a rejection of memes comes from a skepticism or rejection about the use of computational and information theoretic metaphors in biology, cognition, and culture which is often argued as (computational metaphors about mind or culture) a continuation or an extension of Cartesian dualism. -- DivisionByZer0 (talk) 06:37, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Similar to the notion of cultural objects, we can associate the linguistic concept of an universal language made of primitive atomic definitions, such as Leibniz's characteristica universalis, and also proposed by Descartes for a lexicon of an universal language.--Wcris (talk) 16:45, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

The word Meme to mean a repetition of a prayer, in the manner of the Rosary, something being repeated in order that it cannot be forgotten, is used in 1920s Catholic theological texts, so how did Dawkins invent it? Did he have a time machine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.242.83 (talk • contribs) 11:21, 16 April 2010

Do you have a source verifying your statement? Does the meaning of "meme" in your source have anything to do with what Dawkins described? Also, bear in mind that there have been many cases where concepts or terms have been independently invented, so it is quite possible (and for a short word like "meme", even likely) that the term has been used for similar or different meanings by many different people. Johnuniq (talk) 05:04, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

So by your own argument it's wrong to assume he invented it because you have no clue.Mattbrown04 (talk) 19:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually I was relying on the reliable source given as reference [1] in the article (and reference [2] although it now seems to be dead). Since [1] relies on Dawkins, I have added more details below. Note that any four-letter word is likely to have been uttered by someone at sometime, so it is quite possible that the suggestion above (that "meme" was used in 1920s Catholic theological texts) may be correct. Johnuniq (talk) 05:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

This topic has been raised before so I have done a little searching to dispel any doubt:

• A book search showing hundreds of sources saying that Dawkins invented/coined the word "meme" is here. Sample pages:
  • Virus of the Mind by Richard Brodie.
  • The meme machine by Susan J. Blackmore.
  • Varieties of meaning by Ruth Garrett Millikan.
• At reference.com, under the "Word Origin & History" for "meme" we read 1976, introduced by evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene" (1976), coined by him from Gk. sources, e.g. mimeisthai "to imitate," and intended to echo gene.

Later I will edit the article to add a reference. Johnuniq (talk) 05:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

At the time of writing, the article begins,

A meme is a unit of cultural ideas, symbols or practices

Does that actually mean anything? Can one have a unit of ideas? What does it mean, a unit of ideas? Is it legitimate to attempt to mathematise ideas by purporting that they can have a unit, as weight can have a unit, like a gram? It seems to me to be an illegitimate manoeuvre.

Is it being suggested that a unit of ideas (if such can exist) is the same as a unit of symbols (if that means anything), or the same as a unit of practices (if that means anything)? Does this make sense: 1 idea = 1 symbol = 1 practice? Or this: 23 ideas + 4 Symbols = 27 practices?

It is unclear to me that any of it makes a titter of sense. It smells of meaninglessness.

Does the word meme mean anything beyond such existing words as motif or trope? If the word meme is meaningful, and that is an open question, it is poorly served by the present attempted definition in this article.

The following sentence in the article tells us,

Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes

Is it proper to try to cross-apply a concept from biology to the field of culture, trampling blindly but buoyed by insensitive, can-do optimism over the great differences that exist between the two spheres? Does that not mangle meaning and lead to misdirected thinking?

I note with bittersweet amusement that this article is categorised under,

• High-importance psychology articles
• Low-importance Philosophy articles
• C-Class philosophy of mind articles
• Philosophy of mind task force articles

Dear me, poor old meme, only a C-Class philosophy of mind article. But wait, it is a high-importance psychology article! What can it all mean (does it mean anything)? I love the Philosophy of Mind Task Force. I wait breathlessly for the Hermeneutics Commando Attack Unit and the Epistemology Elite Assault Command Reserve, and other giddy Pythonisms. --O'Dea (talk) 11:34, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Of course article talk pages are not intended to debate the merits of a topic, but I take it that you feel the article is not helpful. Some thoughts follow. If you look at Archive 4 for my comment dated 10:36, 25 March 2010 (third from the bottom), you will see how Dawkins wrote that the meme was merely to illustrate the general concept of a replicator (so, yes, there is a genuine attempt to apply a concept from biology). The article lead (second paragraph) includes examples from the book which convey the idea of a meme pretty well: if you work out how to build an arch, and I watch you do it, I will also be able to build an arch, and others can in turn learn from me. So something propagates. Some people have tried to extend this simple idea to explain a lot more about culture; I think those attempts have not been particularly successful so far (but my knowledge of that area is very sketchy). Johnuniq (talk) 11:36, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

But, I repeat, does "a unit of cultural ideas, symbols or practices" mean anything, and is it legitimate to "regard memes as cultural analogues to genes"? Whatever the merits or otherwise of the topic, the word meme has gained a substantial foothold so it deserves a clear explanation. The trouble may be, if the concept is inherently dodgy, that a sensible definition may be impossible. In any case, the opening of the article as it stands does not invite trust in the notion. --O'Dea (talk) 15:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)