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Philosophy Noticeboard
This is the central discussion area for WikiProject Philosophy. Feel free to discuss any topics relating to philosophy here. It is recommended that members watchlist this page.
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Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
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I think that the name of Axel Honneth should be added in the template as the actual successor of Jürgen Habermas as the head of critical theory of Frankfurt School. Furter than being just the director in charge of the Institute for Social Research in Frankfurt, his ideas (above all those contained in his work The Struggle for Recognition) are already been widely discussed across Europe and I think he would soon be recognized worldwide for the same reason. I would've added it by myself but I want to wait for some other's opinions before proceeding with that. --VentDuNord (talk) 10:56, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- There is maybe an issue of whether the Frankfurt School proper is bounded in time and personal acquaintance, whether it continues to and beyond the "second generation" at University of Frankfurt? But if so, Honneth is a reasonable addition. More so, possibly, than Helmut Reichelt who has been placed into the Template as a Notable Theorist but is mentioned nowhere in the Frankfurt School article. AllyD (talk) 09:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
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- I just noticed that Honneth was in the Template until an edit in January this year: [1]. AllyD (talk) 09:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
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- Yes, I believe I might have been the one who removed him. Note that the article starts with the earliest theorists and ends with the work of Habermas. The problem with the term "Frankfurt School" is that its meaning and scope may vary according to different sources. It is not necessarily synonymous with "critical theory", which could be seen as the philosophical tradition left by the Frankfurt School. If the FS was synonymous with critical theory, then a lot of other theorists, including Axel Honneth and Seyla Benhabib, would also have to be included. However, I believe the "Frankfurt School" is mostly seen as referring to the earliest critical theorists and would hence exclude Honneth. Correct me if I'm wrong. --m3taphysical (talk) 19:46, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
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- I also believe you are right concerning Helmut Reichelt. He seems to belong to the second/third generations of theorists. Perhaps it would be best to remove him. --m3taphysical (talk) 08:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
- I think that Honneth should be brought back into the article, but not as a member of "second" generation, but rather as the main figure of the third generation. Honneth draws severely on the communicative turn of the second generation, but has also emphasised that communicative relations are not the prime starting point for social and critical theory. As to the "shcool"-issue I also find it reasonable to maintain the idea of an ongoing "Frankfurth School". When you visit the Philosophy department in Frankfurt, there is a clear self-understanding of belonging to a common school. Certainly (and this has been so already since Habermas) with very emphasized relations with other schools. But you cannot be appointed to the department, if you claim that "social critique" is unimportant (I agree certainly that the Frankfurters do not have exclusive rights on this focus) --ejvindh (talk) 19:23, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Proposed Changes to Atheism Article
Hi, a series of proposed changes to the atheism article and have been outlined at Talk:Atheism#article_.2F_source_discrepancies, comments would be appreciated.
I am dubious about the value of the whole "works" category tree as it intersects with the philosophy category. I think I may propose to delete it, as it is completely the same as Category:Philosophical_literature. Are there works that aren't also literature (which cannot merely be placed noncontroversially under literature)? The intention of the literature category originally was to contain all of this stuff. Is there some point to this before I make that proposal? Greg Bard 22:58, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- I did make that proposal: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_June_18#Category:Philosophical_worksGreg Bard 22:52, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Ongoing removal of philosophy content
There is an on-going issue of mathematicians removing philosophy content from logic articles under the pretense of NPOV. Let me state for the record that coverage of content that is important to philosophers is not POV pushing, it is academic subject matter. Currently, there are a few of them pushing their view at Proposition (more evidence of this phenomenon at Tautology (logic)). In the proposed MOS there is provision for attempting to cover the "meta-perspective" (i.e. distinctions such as the type-token distinction are accounted for). This, it seems to me to be eminently responsible. However this is diametrically opposed to the philosophy of these editors. It is demonstrably their goal to remove any meta-perspective. This situation cannot stand. At some point we need to approve the MOS, and enforce it.Greg Bard 21:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
- I really don't see that this is a mathematical logic versus philosophy thing; It seems to me that you are presenting a particular view (that propositions are sentences) as uncontroversial and obvious when in fact the opposite is true, the status of propositions as truth bearers or as the meanings of sentences (and indeed, whether such things as propositions even exist in the first place) is a hot area and is by no means settled. Can you provide a source to back this claim up? BrideOfKripkenstein (talk) 23:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
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- B of K, the content including the term "sentence" I am perfectly open to using the most general "statement" or something involving all possible terms like "statement (also proposition, or sentence)." The term "sentence" was not the big issue, because there will be no problem arriving at something. The type-token distinction and other meta-issues are important however. If people got the wrong idea, then deletion of the type-token distinction should be restored along with whatever agreed upon term.Greg Bard 17:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
- Ok then, I guess -- but I don't see how Type/Token distinction really bears on this; sentence types versus sentence tokens is orthogonal to the question of whether a proposition is a sentence (I maintain they're not) but as long as you're willing to concede that I guess we're in at least some measure of agreement. Strawson at least preferred the term 'statement' to 'proposition' if I recall. BrideOfKripkenstein (talk) 18:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, the claim that a proposition is "an idea, concept or abstraction" is very odd to me. The competing lede (which claims that a proposition is either a sentence or the meaning of a sentence) is much more common in the literature, philosophical or otherwise. Phiwum (talk) 02:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
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- I notice that Greg Bard's sole citation to justify his change in the lede does not say that a proposition is an idea, concept or abstraction. On the contrary, on p. 45 of the 1973 edition of Metalogic (as found on Google Books), we see:
- "A proposition ... is a sentence expressing something true or false. It is an abstract thing; its tokens are strings of words."
- So, the cite does make the claim that a token of a proposition is a string of words, but this is true just because the author defines a proposition to be a kind of sentence and sentence tokens are strings of words. Phiwum (talk) 02:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
- I see that the same phrase occurs on the Syntax (logic) and Symbol (formal) pages and was once added to the Theorem page. It seems to me that Greg Bard has a particular affection for labeling these syntactic objects thus. I'm sure I don't know why. Phiwum (talk) 03:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
- It should be no surprise to see a similar class of objects similarly described. I have stated my reasoning sufficiently in the introductory paragraph. The SEP refers to the type-token distinction as an important distinction. In these cases identifying that an object is an idea rather than physical object is to provide a precise and clear definition. It is telling readers what it is on a fundamental level. This is what we should be doing. It helps to avoid POV issues whn done correctly. This is why the meta-perspective is important.Greg Bard 17:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
- The type/token distinction may well be an important notion when one discusses propositions, say. But it does not follow that the opening paragraph on an article about propositions should claim that they are ideas, concepts or abstractions rather than the far commoner definition: they are kinds of sentences or the meanings of kinds of sentences. This is my point.
- By all means, mention the type/token distinction (perhaps not in the lede, though I have no strong opinion). But unless you can find a single citation that says "ontologically" a proposition is a concept, then you should drop this idiosyncratic presentation. (And even a single citation doesn't suffice to change the lede, when countless authors use the already discussed meaning.) Phiwum (talk) 19:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
come on....I truely Belive that all knowleaged is impotant nomatter what the conscept or idea is. It is a vital part of our existace, with out the small things we cant have the bigger more complex things.... becuz..everything is made up from the same conscept, from that is were more idaes, conscepts, resources, and everyting else comes from. if we dont have the power, then we create it, thus takeing something in return as an equal... if we have the perception to know the outcome and its consequences, and in turn ther consequences' consequences...when the bad outcomes outway the good outcomes, only then do we have the right to take someting and make it seem like it nevered existed.GrimInsight NickHolcombe (talk) 21:23, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
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- I can't argue with that.Greg Bard (talk) 21:32, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
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- Maybe this is helpful: User:Morton Shumway/Proposition (Quotes). --Morton Shumway (talk) 14:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC).
[edit] Category rename/change proposals
An editor from the mathematics department made this proposal. Greg Bard 18:39, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Proposed deletion of Nontheism
[edit] Bibliography about Intelligence for Wikipedians
I have posted a bibliography of Intelligence Citations for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on intelligence and related issues, some of which I see are in the scope of this WikiProject. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in those issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research and to suggest new sources to me by comments on that page. I would especially appreciate hearing about more sources that take a philosophical perspective or that broaden the discussion of intelligence to include nonhuman intelligence. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 21:19, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Barnstar
Greetings, everyone at WikiProject Philosophy! I am here to inform you that a proposal has been made to modify your barnstar, here. You are invited to participate in the discussion! Thanks for taking time to read this notice. Kayau Voting IS evil 01:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Philosophical works CFD
Hello, this is a notice for this WikiProject in regards to a current category for discussion. The category Category:Philosophical works and its subcategories are currently nominated to be merged. Your comments are welcome, and the discussion can be found here. Thank you. — ξxplicit 21:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm restarting this previously stillborn WikiProject. If you're interested, please join. There are still some very basic tasks which need doing, such as building the WikiProject page, and tagging core articles using the recently created Template:WikiProject Theology. Many thanks ! Claritas § 20:09, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Confirmation bias is now a Featured Article
Confirmation bias, which is rated as mid-importance for this wikiproject, has passed FAC. This brings the total number of FA-class philosophy articles to 46. MartinPoulter (talk) 12:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
This project claims History of painting within its area, so I am posting here for outside opinions. There is a disagreement on the History of painting talk page regarding the number of images within the article. I believe the majority of the 400 images need to be removed while other editors believe the article is fine as it is. Opinions appreciated. --auburnpilot talk 17:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Categories for discussion
Greg Bard (talk) 20:19, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Please help on new item related to Heidegger!!
Newly created article on U.S. Heidegger editor & translator Jesse Glenn Gray needs help. He met with Heidegger and I think was lede editor on Heidegger for Harper & Row. Was friend of Hanna Arendt, who wrote fairly extensive intro on his most significant work "The Warriors." I've long suspected this memoir concerningn WWII influenced various writers and filmmakers whose work concerned Vietnam War.
Calamitybrook (talk) 06:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for contributing the article; I have tidied it up somewhat. Skomorokh 06:52, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Loyalty
I've just discovered that I worked on Fan loyalty (AfD discussion). So I think it only just that the burden of working on Loyalty (AfD discussion) be shared around a little. Feel free to muck in. There's lots to say. I've just read that Hegel thought loyalty to be unjustly founded, whereas Bismark boasted that it was a virtue that was peculiarly German. I'm sure that there's more in the same vein. If everyone does a paragraph each, we might have a good stub soon. Uncle G (talk) 05:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Portoesque logic prodded
I have just placed a prod tag on Portoesque logic, in case anyone here would like to review this action. Sławomir Biały (talk) 12:34, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- PROD was removed, opened an AfD. BrideOfKripkenstein (talk) 02:37, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Teleological ethics
Hello everybody, I have seen a number of strange things on the pages concerning ethics here. Most I can sort of handle myself, however, there is a page that needs to be redone completely because the very title is incorrect: consequantialism. This is a different word for utilism, not for teleological ethics. I have placed a quote on the talk page by the way. Anyway, I would like to have some help because it will require quite some work. Also somebody to discuss the matters with before fixing things that are not as broke as I might think they are. Is anybody willing to talk things over with me? I'll do the work myself if you are short on time (as I can image unfortunately). --Faust (talk) 13:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure which problem you are pointing to: there was an article on teleological ethics, but now serves as a redirect to consequantialism. SO is the intent to recreate the teleological ethics article? - Bilby (talk) 14:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Most of the article on consequentionalism is actually on teleological ethics. There are a number of quite drastic cuts and pastes, not to mention renames involved. And I haven't even named the question of correct information. So, my intent is to first select what exactly is teleology and separate this from the consequentionalism. Then we can make an introduction to consequentionalism (utilism) and link to a more elaborate page if needs be. How well know are you in ethics? --Faust (talk) 14:39, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Anyone want to try and rewrite this? It's shocking in it's current state, as far away from NPOV as you could get. --Cameron Scott (talk) 20:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
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